ROTR - Bruce Nichols
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[00:00:00] This is Recruiters on the Rise, and I'm Colleen Gallagher. Join me for candid conversations with talent leaders as we explore the work that drives them, the lessons they've learned, and how they're helping people find careers they love. This show is sponsored by Lavalier, an interview intelligence platform built by Textio.
Colleen Gallagher: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Recruiters on the Rise. Um, I'm really excited for today's guest. He went from jumping out of planes in the 82nd Airborne to running every part of HR from Fidelity to Liberty Mutual and leading HR, leading the HR side of a $2 billion PE deal.
Um, he walked away from corporate HR, so we'll talk about that, joined a consultancy of 30 senior HR executives and hasn't looked back. Uh, he currently serves as the partner and principal at the Human Resources Consortium. Bruce Nichols, welcome to the show.
Bruce Nichols: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to talk to you
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. Um, so, you know, obviously you've had a pretty broad, um, [00:01:00] uh, experience, uh, working in HR, and we focus primarily on, um, topics related to recruiting.
So would love to hear from you based on your breadth of experience around this. What do you think makes the best recruiter?
Bruce Nichols: I, I would say, um, the best recruiter, like off the top of my head, right, I could point to him and talk to him any day, it was this, uh, guy at, over at Liberty who, who just knew the business. And it wasn't just-- And I think all of us from e- if we started in recruiting or in HR function, we really wanna get to know the business and understand how it makes money and does things. But he could just talk upside of the tech stack, down the other side of the tech stack, and have these conversations that
would just blow me away. And as much as I thought I was-- I had this great acumen and I could talk to the CIOs and talk to some of these, uh, senior business leaders, he was just running circles around these conversations. Um, and, and it wasn't just the fact that he could do that. And then he just knew instinctively, "I gotta go find this person or find these people," and [00:02:00] he could source for them. Um, and then he was looking out, like he always knew, I knew this business. I know this group. There's gonna be churn. There's gonna be churn over."
And he would just go get a source, and he would just keep filling that pipeline. Um, and it was constant. Like you could just h- know, like I, um, I-- "Ron, I need somebody, and this is what it's gonna look like." "Yeah, I had that chat two or three weeks ago."
Colleen Gallagher: how do you think about that outside, like, technical roles? Do you, do you think that is more specific to tech recr- like technical role recruiters or
Bruce Nichols: Yeah. You know, it was apparent in the technical side because there, you know, um, because it's so nuanced and there's some, you know, you have to understand, um, the, the, the differences in like software engineering and data engineering, machine learning. So there's so many different things to know, but I, I'm convinced that it doesn't have to be technology.
I think you can do it in corporate functions. You could do it in finance. You could do it for a call center. I think it's more about understanding, you know, what the needs of that business [00:03:00] are. And from a recruiting perspective, it's, you know, the best ones always knew how to source, like just knew strategically where to go get the right
people for those jobs. And there was just, it was just a constantly filling of that funnel. So it was never a lag time in saying like, "I'm gonna open the job and I don't have candidates, I gotta go look for them." It was just this constant proactivity. Um, and I can go all the way back to my Fidelity days in, in recruiting for call centers.
It was the same thing, like a constant turning of that source. Yeah.
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. I, I know you said before you don't care as much if the pipeline is full because you can fill it with, with garbage. So, so where, what do you care about instead? What do you look at?
Bruce Nichols: Yeah. Sometimes I say these things and I'm like, "Yeah, I don't care about that. I just don't flow." You know, I-- You-- When I think about, um, especially on the technical side, I, I really want to know that, um, that we're representing culture, we're representing the company, and that, you know, to me, like, it's like culture drives productivity. and you could go out there and [00:04:00] find the best qualified candidates and have the best credentials, but if they don't fit the system or they're just not good for that culture, then you, know, you're wasting your time anyway. and and some of the, you know, most qualified candidates that I've seen come in through some of these doors were the worst hires.
And it's, because we didn't do that other part of the
diligence process and making sure that they fit or understand how to fit into the culture.
Colleen Gallagher: I love that phrase. I wrote it down actually. Culture drives productivity. Um, can you say more about how you evaluate for that?
Bruce Nichols: I think we all kind of go back and so we have to have these open-ended questions and behavioral-based interviewing. Not a fan. Uh, but, you know, I think a lot of it comes down to, you know, you can do the assessments, you can pay thousands of dollars for each assessment for final client.
I, and I've never been a big fan of any of that, and I think really as you're having these conversations from a recruiting perspective especially, is, um, getting to know that candidate or that applicant and having dialogues about, uh, [00:05:00] what's important to them, something outside of work, what drives them.
And think sometimes we, we do these things as, as because we wanna be nice and generate conversation. But I think it's really important when you, you reflect on it, you know, you know, "I'm out there and I'm participating in the community. I'm out there and I do nonprofit work. I'm out there and this is how I fill my time."
I, you know, um, and I find some of the times when I had that best connection, I would say something like, "I'm a big runner," or, "I like to go to the gym," or, "I'm playing tennis with my family and my wife," or, uh, and, you know, they'll pop in with something, "So I like to do this instead," or, "This is how I think about it," and, "This is what I do with my family or my community."
Um, and I think that helps kind of ease that conversation. Then you can get into the skills, but at least you know they have a personality and then you can have that reflection and say, "Okay, this is why it's important for you to be able to have that conversation with the
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. I like the call out though there where you talk about making sure they have the skills, 'cause I think what, you know, we, we at Textio have done a lot of research around is, [00:06:00] um, you know, people end up hiring people they like, which
Bruce Nichols: Yeah.
Colleen Gallagher: Is okay if you, you know, if you like somebody as well, but you also need to make sure that they have the skills, um,
to do the job, and that, that probably speaks to what you said a lot of times, like the, the best person, um, you know, on paper, uh, or that, you know, gets through a process because everyone was like, "Oh, this person was great," and then they come in and they can't actually do the job,
Bruce Nichols: Yeah.
Colleen Gallagher: Is a, is a big problem
Bruce Nichols: Yeah. It is a v- very pr- I actually saw a, um, a senior leader at one of the companies I worked for, and he had this whole assessment thing built out, uh, for software engineers on a board, and he would have them come in and c- solve these complex problems, and they're writing out code, and he would have this fantastic conversation.
He'd come back, "Well, that's the best candidate because they could fill all the answers in on the code." And I'm, I'm like, "Well, you're hiring for a software engineer two years out of school. They probably did all new coding. Like they-- that's probably what their education was, so I'm not surprised academically they [00:07:00] could do that.
But did you actually have a conversation with this person? Um, did you actually have a, a chat about, you know, they're gonna have to show up here Monday, Tuesday, maybe Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Maybe you didn't. Do you talk about the environment?" And, uh, inevitably, we had a tremendous amount of turnover in that business because he was just hiring people because he felt comfortable with their technical
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.
Bruce Nichols: Uh, so there's a balance to that for
sure. Um, but I think we've seen a trend lately in, in recruiting and hiring and the HR processes where we're like, "Let's just get out there and find the person that we like the best, and we know this person and they're a known commodity, and I really like..." You know, "It's my, my nephew's son's brother's
cousin three times removed," so they get a, they get the final interview no matter what,
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah, I mean, I've seen a lot of, um, companies, or not a lot, but I've seen a, a number of posts on LinkedIn where people are talking about how they're just abandoning inbound and solely doing outbound. So how do you, like, how do you think about that?
Bruce Nichols: I'm a big fan of [00:08:00] LinkedIn anyway, 'cause I, I think you can start that debate, uh, or any, uh, kind of debate on that topic.
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah
Bruce Nichols: Um, but I really think that, um, a recruiting perspective, y- uh, it-- a fundamentalist at my core. Like, I think you have to focus on the basics. So inbound, outbound, to me, I don't know that I have an opinion either way, but I think if you could do the basics and you can build your community and you can focus on, um, the job, and it, it's-- I, I'm always like this people first, people-centric mindset.
Um, and let's do the job right from a fundamentals perspective, and then let's start nuancing it into what fits into the strategy of the business.
Colleen Gallagher: I know switching more to like HR as a system, which you mentioned is one of the things you've said is that HR needs to shift from being sort of a policy police to being predictive. What does that actually mean in practice?
Bruce Nichols: uh, you know, small and mid-size companies, I think a lot of business leaders, they get frustrated because they want less red tape. They [00:09:00] just want something to work, and they just don't want to deal with, "Okay, I can and cannot do this, and my HR person's gonna tell me no." And then when you kind of go up the scale in, in size or in, uh, complexity of an organization, the argument sometimes is the same. And, uh, a leader wants to be able to run their business and know that they have a supporting function. And that holistic HR approach doesn't necessarily mean that we're here saying yes or no. Maybe it's providing that advice and consi- and, and direction and what we've seen work best in the Yeah Um, and then allowing the business leader to kind of make an educated decision based on expertise and based on your recommendation.
So, um, to me, have to start shifting that, uh, mindset to more predictive analytics and predictive outcomes and, uh, tying our strategy and r- especially recruiting. Like if we're gonna go out to the marketplace and look for people and, uh, we should have that laid out or planned. Har- very hard to do over a three to five-year period, but we should be able to look at skill sets [00:10:00] that we need and the changing skill sets that we're gonna need over time. Um, and then kind of have a prediction of where that cr- group is gonna be, where are we gonna find that source and how they, uh, and how we're gonna attract them. Um, I saw, uh, an organization, um, moving large groups of, um, systems admin, database administrators and skill sets that we knew they weren't gonna need out of their organization. then we stopped and paused, and we thought about that and said, "Okay, we, we know we have people that fit culture, so let's train the skills."
'Cause we know we need those skills over the next three to five years. We know this is what we're gonna be
doing. let's give them that opportunity to do that.
So that system changes from, let's cut here and, uh, go out and market and search. We'll-- And we can save money in that process. So automatically the HR is showing return on that investment in the people because we're not spending money to cut, spending money to hire, spending money to onboard. We have a group that's onboarded and, and culturally [00:11:00] trained into the organization, so we just have to update skills.
Um, and as long as we're providing that platform, that's how I think from a recruiting and talent management, talent acquisition standpoint, we should start thinking about things.
Colleen Gallagher: When you, when you are working with these organizations, how are they thinking about, especially with how things feel like they're changing a lot and there's sort of a lot of uncertainty about where we're going, like what are the skills that they're trying to train people for that they need, you know, one, two, three years, um, down the road?
Bruce Nichols: I, I've seen so much and I, I think in a lot of different forms, like the, we hear the skills of the future and the changing of culture, but I think change, you know, we all know this, we've heard it before, is change is constant. Um, so, uh, outside of the... You know, I think you can go into any type of skill set.
Like, you know, you can go from call center to accounting and finance into technology and whatever. And I think the one thing that I'm seeing, adaptability
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah
Bruce Nichols: what-- I mean, like that skill is, um, the person's [00:12:00] ability to adapt to change and to transform and then move ahead and learn something new is almost as important as the initial skills that we're hired for, um, or they're gonna learn
learn um, organizations are doing a good job of assessing or identifying people who are, who have that talent? Or h- or how are they even looking for it?
I, I really wanna say no.
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.
Bruce Nichols: I really do. 'cause I
Colleen Gallagher: That's kind of-- I mean, I wasn't trying to ask a leading question or anything, but like, um, I do think it's r- it's really difficult to, um, you know... That's why there's so many people chasing after skills assessments and things like that and trying to figure out, because like curiosity, dealing with ambiguity, you know, adaptability are the things that everyone's really searching for right now.
Bruce Nichols: Yeah. I-- And not to, uh, kind of sell our services on this, but I, one of the things that we've started doing from a consultancy's perspective is, um, looking at trust and adaptability and, um, from an assessment. So we have a retained search [00:13:00] practice and, uh, it's on top of our consultancy, and we have this really great tool, uh, developed by Dr.
Larry Kuhn, and he's on our team, and he's been working on changing the typical assessment that we've all com- you know, we've all seen, like the Hogans and all these
other assessments that we're comfortable with. Um, and he's written a new one that's focused on trust and the parameters and how you measure it, so you don't have like a one to five.
It's more like it's, it's like a spectrum of the, of the answer. And how you answer that doesn't mean it's necessarily good or bad, but it gives you a trust score, and then it allows other people to as-assess you from a trust and adaptability perspective. And it's very cool. So we're just now getting out to that.
And I think, uh, I would like to say we do it well, but we haven't really done it yet. We're still testing
it. Um, but I think that's where companies need to go. Uh, and I don't, I don't see anybody else out there really doing that yet,
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.
Bruce Nichols: Uh, at holistically or well enough.
Colleen Gallagher: I mean, you know, I think there's been news lately about, what was it? The Bolt CEO saying he, you know, [00:14:00] fired his whole HR team. So I think it goes back to this, this, um, idea of, you know, HR not as, quote-unquote, "policy poli- police."
Bruce Nichols: Yeah
Colleen Gallagher: you know, who know- I don't know anything about the interior workings of that organization, but my hunch as a leader is there's probably something more, um, going on there.
But,
Bruce Nichols: Yeah
Colleen Gallagher: how do you recommend or coach your, you know, HR leaders or others to get into a trust and, um, thought leadership position within an organization, especially when, you know, a lot of the historical beliefs, beliefs people have, and, you know, I saw this in finance too, was, you know, finance and HR are just like back office and they should, you
Bruce Nichols: Yeah
Colleen Gallagher: sort of count the numbers and count the people and, and keep their mouth shut
Bruce Nichols: yeah, I-- And I'll come back to the bolt piece of it too because I can, I'll see if I can tie it in. But my best lesson as an [00:15:00] HR leader, um, it wa- I was the head of HR for a company called Wheelabrator Technologies, and I think we had, I talked to you a little bit about this, and that was that $2 billion acquisition from Waste Management into private equity. Um, and the harshest lesson I got out of it and the, the most important lesson I got as an HR leader was sitting with the CFO. And, uh, we were redesigning a total rewards and short-term incentive program and, um, trying to build out this new thing that was gonna be based on metrics, operational and financial metrics, EBITDA and all these things.
And I was stunned with, uh, the amount of and the level of detail that he went into to make sure that we were tying in the overall corporate structure and metrics into this HR program. And as he was walking me through this and, uh, you know, I always came at it like I, I knew total rewards, I knew compensation.
I've, I've done those jobs before. And then all of a sudden I'm like, "This is a whole new level of things." Um, and I would say like anybody in HR, uh, [00:16:00] that wants to sit in that seat going forward, they, uh, spend time with the CFO and just sit there and observe, listen, learn, some time understanding the financial operations of the business, and then wash, rinse, repeat with the COO.
And I say that because the, the COO of that same company went, as we're going through this deal, grabbed me by the back of the collar and we ran out into a power plant and we s- we stood in a pile of mud and muck as a steam pipe burst and spread ash and chemicals and everything, you know, all over the place.
And I was in my brand new Brooks Brothers suit that my wife wanted me to look nice in for the private equity board. Uh, and I was covered in mud and slush. And he's like, "This is why we have to have talent planning and this is why this is important because if we had made a decision a few months ago and actually hired for the right, you know, the right manager for this role, we wouldn't be in this space." Um, and he's pointing at me and I'm like, "I don't even know what you're talking about right now. All I see is soot and
ash and, craziness." And I'm like, that tied everything together
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah
Bruce Nichols: there. But having-- And that was, um, that hire, uh, I don't [00:17:00] blame the recruiting team at all. It, it's, it's not them.
It was me and my, and not being on the same page with that COO uh, and not allowing, know, the right decision to be made
from a talent strategy perspective. And that cost us a lot of money. Um, you know, fortunately, like we were able to, um, fix it quickly and it didn't destroy the, the, the deal,
but that's a prime example of how you, how I think about it
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. I mean, I think it's so true. I, um, you know, I started my... I, I have a undergrad degree in finance, and my first job out of college, I worked for PwC and had to do a lot of, um, invoice testing. And I learned so much about how companies operate by being able to look at, like, an invoice to see, like, what are they billing for?
How are they collecting it? Then we would look at, like, the costs associated. L- like, it was such a good way to understand the, like... It was some of the most basic stuff, but it gave me a really fundamental understanding of, like, how does a company bill and collect money? [00:18:00] Um, you know, and then I, as I matured in my career, like, one of the, um, CEOs I worked with used to say, like, uh, you know, and this isn't, this isn't novel, but it's been a thing that I, I think about a lot, is like, the definition of strategy is how you allocate money.
And I, I, I broaden it a little because I think it's like, it's more, it's how you bring together the allocation of, you know... It was m- I think more of what he was speaking to was resources.
Bruce Nichols: Yeah
Colleen Gallagher: but, uh, you know, especially now and, and it reaffirms what you were talking about, which is, like, if you know how to bring...
I, I, I've expanded the definition to include time, because you have limited amounts of time, you have limited, limited amount of resources, and it's, like, really how you make the priorities amongst all of those things. But if you can sit in a seat and help, and that's really where I think HR leaders can be such a powerful resource, and why a lot of CFOs have moved into that seat, is [00:19:00] because they see a lot of that
Bruce Nichols: Exactly. you know, the, um, th- CFO in particular, um, I had actually made a pitch at one point. I'm like: Why don't I just come and report to you for-- And which was not what I wanted to do or whatever, but I was learning so much that operation
and how the company operated that I was like, I, I was excited to go in and learn something that I hadn't done before. Obviously, that wasn't the right answer, and I don't believe that HR needs to report into a finance function. And, and that's a whole nother topic for a different podcast, I believe. But, um, you know, when I sat back and thought about this, that was the key point of my, uh, my, um, coming of age, I guess, in the HR leadership function, is understanding not just showing up and having all these different silos, but really ste- stepping back and thinking about, "Okay, I have to hire somebody.
We have to bring them into the organization. We have to onboard them, and we have to do it in a way that doesn't, um, blow the, the budget." And now that I understand the, the financial aspects of the, [00:20:00] of the business and why the budget is important, tying that all together and kind of making that argument over time, it just made better sense.
So I wasn't sitting in a room full of leaders saying-- looking at me saying, "Why don't I have budget for my headcount that I need this year?" And I'm like: Well, let's look at the financials of the business. Let's, let's look at your metrics. Let's look at how we operate. Let's look at your turnover. Maybe we should stop the turnover from hiring before you
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.
Bruce Nichols: Our recruiting team on needless recs.
Let's really, uh, put some thought into
Colleen Gallagher: how do you think about or, or, um, have you seen companies do well, like quality of hire? Like this concept of tracking the, um,
the right, you know, whether or not the person you hired is the right person
Bruce Nichols: Yeah, the quality of hire. I've seen those metrics and I've seen them out and about in a few different companies, and, um, and I don't know that we word it correctly 'cause I, I wanna go with like time to productivity
or, um, revenue per employee or something that kind of [00:21:00] says, um, "I've been here for X number of days or weeks or months or whatever it is, and now I am productive and this is how long it should've taken."
So that's the quality of your hire. Um, and short-term turnover, I, uh, you know, I think we're always gonna have to deal with that. But I, you know, as we're bringing somebody into the company, we should have an idea of how long that person takes to come value, valued back to the, you know, return on that investment.
So I guess sales would be the easiest way to point it. Like, if you're hiring a salesperson and they have to learn the
business and the culture, learn the product, and then move on, you should be able to show a return on that at some point and say,
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.
Bruce Nichols: Now they're officially productive."
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the challenge is like, um As I've spent more time working with folks in the HR space, being at Textio obviously, but you know fi- there are a lot of finance metrics, but they're- Yeah
much [00:22:00] more easy to calculate, right? Yeah. Because you know what your gross margins are. Yeah. You know what your EBITDA is. You know, uh, for the most part what your cost is, even when you look at like ramping salespeople, right? Like there's a pretty, um, easy calculation of, of, of that. But it's, it gets so hard once you're moving into a space.
Like I, I agree- Yeah ... I like the, like revenue per employee or, um, time to productivity, but I think like the challenge with time to productivity is it really requires the hiring manager, um, to understand what that means. Um- Yeah ... and I don't know if everyone does. No, I don't, I don't think they do. Um, and I think, so that's, you know, that's a prime area for an HR person to start digging in.
Like what does it mean and what does that timeframe look like? And laying out the framework for that. Uh, partnering with finance, partnering with the management team, and just trying to get underneath that [00:23:00] and helping them build that metric out because it'll ch- it, it could change based on the function, could change based on the company.
Um, you know, there may be functions you should be able to show up day one, uh, and be productive because it, it's a task that says, "Okay, move this box from here to here, put it here to here," and you're productive. And then there's- Yeah ... gonna be other organizations where there's a long ramp-up time, there's testing or assessments involved, there's a long onboarding track.
Um, I know, uh, I've seen a couple large investment companies that, um, you know, they bring college hires in. They have a really robust program. They test them and to make sure they have the acumen and intelligence to pass their, those tests that they need to test and for and pass. And then they have this huge ramp-up time to make sure that they're trained, and then they're productive.
It might take six to nine months for them to be truly productive. Yeah. But it's cheaper to do it that way than to actually keep filling 'em up with new seats, filling new seats up with new people. I, I know you've spent a lot of time [00:24:00] in mergers or acquisitions.
Um, you talk about CEOs fearing organ rejection after an acquisition. Yeah. What do you see... What have you seen go wrong or go, go right? some of the toughest ones I've seen are acquisitions where the, the cultures are so diverse and so different and, um, that we're, you know, you, you kind of take them in and say, "Okay, this is what we do and this is how we do it, and this is the new company, so you adapt or go away."
Um, and I think there's a l- uh, and I think that's the organ rejection of we... You know, I, I, you know, one of the, um, power plants I remember going through the acquisition for, and I, we divested one, acquired another, and as we were going through this process, I just remember having to go up to this plant on a regular basis and talking to local managers and being part of that transition on the ground, where I had, I mean, I had HR leaders, we had leaders from the business.
We had a lot of operations people there that should've been able to do that. But what we were [00:25:00] finding in that, uh, and one of the lessons I learned there is that we didn't spend enough time, you know, understanding the culture they were leaving, even though it was the same industry, of what was important to them, why it was important, and simple things like I have this number of hours to break, or this amount of, amount of time to come in in the morning, or this amount of time to get onto the floor, and simple twists or changes in that process changes that, uh, that culture just so slightly, and then you have a little bit of an or- organ re- rejection.
Even, it could even be get 15 less minutes to do a task And, um, closing those gaps and communicating what those gaps are and how you're gonna rectify and bring them closer together. And then inside that also, we did a lot of, um, a lot of time on, like, compensation and benefits and things that, you know, touch the pocket of this is what you got before, this is what you're getting now, and here's the difference between the two, and here's why it's not too, too bad Yeah. I remember I was part of a... [00:26:00] We had done an acquisition when I was at a company, and as part of it, you know, there were gonna be some headcount changes and some people impacted. And, it was a very awkward meeting, but honestly, the thing that I sort of heard back from everyone afterwards was, and, and this division had been through a number of acquisitions bef- you know, it had changed hands, I believe, a number of times, and they were like, "No one's ever really just, like, talked with us about it."
Yeah. And e- even though it didn't change the outcome for them- Yeah ... it at least made them feel seen and, you know It was a simple thing to do, but, um, it was hard, you know? But I felt super uncomfortable doing it ' you know, I, I can remember a few times going through different processes like that, and what I always came back to was let's treat the people as adults. Um, and we- I think HR and business leaders, they're over-index on, uh, on security and risk and trying to make sure that [00:27:00] the, the, the word doesn't get out, and we're creating unnecessary noise, and people are gonna be nervous, and we don't wanna have litigation.
And, and in- instead, what, you know, uh, you know, being able to step back on this a couple times, um, being able to communicate with people and say, "This is as much as we can give you now. We're gonna give you more when we can, but this is the impact of it." And, um, I saw one leader, you know, he called it his transformational journey, and it was basically taking whole groups of people and saying, "Listen, you may not have a job this time next year, and this is what it looks like over that year."
Um, just, and it- being honest with them, say, "I'm gonna do everything I can to help you along this journey, but if you're sitting in this seat, this is what to expect, and this is the timeline we're operating under, and these are the conditions we have to do it under." And then we would have these regular updates, and sometimes we'd get criticized because you can't do that.
You can't tell these people. You're gonna hurt culture. But one of the things we ended up doing or finding is that our culture fr- and I'm, I'm not a big fan of, like, [00:28:00] ENPS and measuring culture that way. Mm-hmm. So all the questions are always the same, but our scores never dipped. And we, as a matter of fact, when we started looking at the comments we were getting, the comments actually were a lot more favorable because- Yeah
w- because they were like, "Thank you for being honest and letting us know, and m- make, be able to plan and think about this." And- Yeah ... um, you know, operating with a little bit of empathy, a little bit of understanding. You have to have the decisiveness, um, but operating a little decisive and a little bit of humility, mixing in the empathy, and so it, it, that goes a long way.
Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that creates the most, um, anxiety and discomfort is the lack of, like, control and understanding, right? That's that authenticity and that trust. And that's why I think that's kinda going back to our previous part, is that building of trust and authenticity and being able to mi- migrate through that a little bit is, uh, and, and adaptability is so much more important right now.
You know, I mentioned at the top of the show that you, you know, started out after, uh, you know, coming out of school- Yeah ... out of airplanes. Um- Yeah ... [00:29:00] and then now you're in HR. So tell, tell us a little bit more about that journey. I never thought in a million years I'd be in this seat.
I, I was for sure, um, I was gonna get my commission, I was gonna serve my 20, 25 years, and then I was gonna retire and work at, like, a Home Depot driving a fork truck at night. That was my ultimate. I was so excited. That was my career goals. Um- And, uh, you know, I had a job, got hurt. Um, I was recently married and hadn't seen my wife in about a year.
Um, she had just- Wow ... recently had left the Army also. Um, and we just made a decision. We're like, "Let's, let's not do this." And I was horrified. I mean, and, and I was scared because I didn't know what was gonna... I had a degree in accounting, actually. Um, and I had no i- I didn't wanna be an accountant. I just figured that was better than having a market- I didn't...
I, I just- Yeah ... figured I'll do this instead of that. Um, and I, you know, I woke up one day, we packed up the car, and we [00:30:00] just drove, and we left. I had resigned my commission, got a nice deal. Out the door we went, and I mean, there's a lot more to it behind it, and then, um, I got into recruiting and, um, I was actually working as a finance guy reconciling inventory counts for Sun Microsystems, which I think is now part of or was part of Oracle or whatever it was.
And, uh, I was miserable. Walked into an office for, I think it was Robert Half at the time in their, their account temps division. I'm like, "I can't do this. This is stupid. I hate it." Mm-hmm. And then they're like, "Well, come do this instead." Mm-hmm. "Um, try this out." And I, you know, and I, and I just fell in love with that process.
And then, you know what is funny is I remember going through that and, uh, finding my way over to Fidelity as a contract recruiter, thinking I would start my own search firm. I had a couple things going on at the same time, doing, like, an HR consulting, a recruiting consultant type thing for a little bit.
Um, and then got tapped on the shoulder by [00:31:00] one of the HR execs to say, "We, you know, done a good job recruiting. I already talked to the, the, the recruiting director. You start Monday. You're gonna be the HR manager over there. Congratulations." I'm like, "I didn't even interview for the job, I don't think. I don't even know what happened."
I, I- Yeah. And I just knew coming out of the Army and then spending my few years in recruiting, I was doing everything I can to avoid HR people- Yeah ... 'cause they kept getting in the way. Yeah. Um, so here I am in that seat trying to figure out how not to be in the way. And, um- Yeah ... so, and the rest was kind of history.
I'm following it back, and, um, I don't know why I ever regret it. I just really question how. how does the time you spent in the Army influence, like, how you lead or how you think about work? the, the first lesson I learned was humility. Um, and I remember, well, a few weeks before commissioning- Um, the, the, the gentleman, uh, a retired sergeant major from the army, he was with one of the Ranger battalions and, uh, a Vietnam vet, and was the hardest, toughest, grizzled guy I'd ever met in my life.
And, um, [00:32:00] and I'm terrified of him to this day, and he's almost 80. And I, I, I... His name's John, John Mott, and I would never even call him John now. And he'll call me tomorrow and be like, "What are, what are you talking about?" about?" You know? Yeah. Um, but I said something really snarky to him, um, because I tend to be a little cynical, a little snarky sometimes.
And, um, and I said, "You know, Sergeant Major, you're gonna have to salute me in a few weeks, so you might as well just check that attitude at the door." And I just remember the next thing I knew, I remember laying on my back in a pile of mud with him kneeling on my chest, and he's pointing at me. He's like, "You're not gonna get out of this career alive."
And I'm like, "Whoa." I mean, and so not getting... And so that double meaning haunts me. It still does. Like, I remember it like it was yesterday because going into the military and going in the 82nd Airborne Division, and that was a dangerous job, so I c- there was a chance I was not gonna get out of that alive, especially with a bad attitude.
Yeah. Um, but also, like, not being that kind of snippy, egocentric- I, you [00:33:00] know, uh, I needed that humility lesson, and he gave it to me, and I've carried it forward. And I... So sometimes I, I do look back on that and I chuckle, but man, I, I don't forget it, ever. one question I like to ask is, like, if, if you, you know, met yourself a couple days after graduation, what would- what advice would you give Shut up and read a book. Yep. Stop talking. Um, um, I, I just had a... I mean, I still do. I have an opinion about everything. I have a thought about everything, and I can just talk my way in circles around any topic and convince myself I'm right. And I think that's, um... And I still learn that humility lesson every day.
Like, I'm constantly reminded that there's somebody smarter, bigger, faster, stronger, whatever. Um, and I have a 23-year-old daughter that reminds me of that, too. So- Yeah. Um, and she's, and legitimately is a lot smarter than I am. So I, I, I don't hold that as a, a grudge, but- Yeah ... um, I would tell myself, "Just stop.
Just stop and think, and learn that lesson faster." I love that. [00:34:00] What, what do you do for fun? I wish I could show you, but it's all over the place. I, uh, it depends on my mood, but I'm really g- I love doing, like, puzzles, and thinking, and stopping.
And because, um, I am always busy and I'm always on the go, like, I don't have this persona that shuts down. Yeah. So, I... My wife actually has bought me, like, 50, 60 different puzzles, and they're stacked in a corner. And on a regular basis will bring one out, and she'll be like, "It's puzzle time. Let's do this."
I'm sure everyone appreciates hearing about those. Well, thank you so much for joining me. Um, I loved, you know, your perspective, especially around, you know, I'm, I'm a little biased obviously because I have a background in finance as well, but I think your advice around really just getting to understand the fundamentals of a business
to make everyone a better leader in HR, and, and frankly, no matter what role you're in, is, um, is, you know, spot on. Right. Exactly. Thank you. So thank you so much for, for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. It was great. And thanks to everyone who is listening. If you learned something today or laughed, [00:35:00] please tell somebody about this podcast.
Thank you again to Bruce. And, um, one last question. Where can people find you if they wanna connect with you? Oh, LinkedIn, uh, is my go-to. Um, but I'm with the Human Resources Consortium. It's, uh, thehrc.com. Okay. Um, look me up there and shoot me a Awesome. Well, thanks again for joining us. Uh, this has been another exciting episode of Recruiters on the Rise.
We will see you all next time. And that wraps up another episode. Thank you for joining. For show notes and other episodes, visit us at recruitersontherise.com. Recruiters on The Rise is sponsored by Lavaliere, an interview intelligence platform. Lavaliere goes beyond basic note-takers to improve your ability to assess candidates with AI-powered interview questions, summaries, and transcription.
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