ROTR - Emily Paik
===
Intro: [00:00:00] This is Recruiters on the Rise. And I'm Colleen Gallagher. Join me for Candid Conversations with Talent Leaders as we explore the work that drives them, the lessons they've learned, and how they're helping people find careers they love. The show is sponsored by Lavalier and Interview Intelligence platform built by Textio.
Colleen Gallagher: Welcome to another episode of Recruiters on the Rise. I'm really excited to, uh, have our guest with us today. She's very passionate about making hiring processes more human, more thoughtful, and ultimately. Effective, and we'll talk a little bit more about, um, about what that means. Um, she writes one of my favorite newsletters in the hiring space called Talent Talk, which she launched recently.
And, um, if you're a Swifty fan, you should definitely check out some of her posts. I'm really excited about this conversation because her journey into recruiting hasn't been a straight line. She came to this work through a lot of real life experiences, navigating the job market herself. [00:01:00] which gave her a lot of inspiration for some of the really impactful and unique ways she approaches her role. She's an advocate for creating structured, demand-driven hiring processes that still put people first. currently serves as a senior recruiter at Kit Emily Paik Welcome to the show.
Emily Paik: Thanks, Colleen. Excited to be on with you.
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. All right. So let's dive right in. Um, first thing I love to, to learn from from folks is get your view, like what is the one thing, one action that sets sets the best recruiters apart from the rest.
Emily Paik: Yeah. For me it's communication. Follow through with candidates, with hiring managers, with stakeholders, anyone involved in the hiring process, and just keeping candidates in the loop. I think that's. The thing that candidates really complain about the most if they go through a negative hiring experience is the lack of communication or getting ghosted.
So that [00:02:00] is half the bottle battle. If you just follow up with candidates, even though you don't have a real update for them, it goes a really long way.
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah, I think, um, you do hear that a lot, and what I'm hearing in what you're saying is that candidate experience is sort of paramount In my experience working with recruiters and talking to a lot of recruiters, they would share the same sentiment, but I think people still fall down in some ways around that.
And curious what you've, what you use to make sure that you are, um, like what are the tools, either technology wise or just in your own process that helps you, um, focus on that and make it a priority in a really effective way.
Emily Paik: Yeah, totally. I mean, it's hard because recruiters these days, they manage. A ton of recs. They manage a ton of applicant volume and a lot of candidates, so, so I get it. I feel like it's, it, as a recruiter it can be hard to keep up, but for me, I've really leaned on [00:03:00] automations and AI to help me with that. Lately I have
uh, a really cool gem in my email account that helps me craft responses. Obviously, I add my own human touch to that and make it sound more like me, but I put it together 'cause I had it. Go through my entire inbox and, um, understand my tone to craft responses in my voice. And then just leading on any automations in the ATS that you use to remind yourself to follow up with candidates.
And then lately I've been really into Claude Cowork, which has been like my personal assistant today, just reminded me to follow up with three candidates that I hadn't gotten back to in three days, which was really helpful. So the more that you can lean on AI and automations for that. But I also just think like for, for me, like I, even before that, I, I really just wanted candidates to stay in the loop.
So like, I would always like just write down notes for myself and would just always try to remember to, to get [00:04:00] back to someone if I hadn't gone back to them within like a few days.
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. Um, I'm curious, so just taking a step back, um, you've been at KIT for about how long?
Emily Paik: Two years. Almost two years. Yeah.
Colleen Gallagher: So what was the state of the recruiting function when you joined? Um, and, You know, what were your priorities or how would you characterize, uh, what you stepped into and what you wanted to focus on?
Emily Paik: Yeah. Absolutely. Hiring felt very reactive. At Kit when I joined, it felt like we were opening roles that we knew we needed to hire for with no target hire date, no target start date. Really just when the hiring manager felt like they. Wanted to finally start recruiting for the role. And they reached out to me and I had no hiring plan to go off of no headcount plan.
And there was a lot that needed to, to be fixed, um, in that respect, but also a lack of resources for hiring teams. [00:05:00] There was no centralized resource for any documentation, any systems for what our process looked like. We, we really didn't have much of a process. So all of that needed to be built. From the ground up, but I had to also prioritize what I wanted to actually fix within my first three to six months.
So understanding what's gonna deliver the most value in the short term to get us to reach our goals. And I knew that needed to ladder up to our company goals and our company strategy. So focusing of course on the roles that would bring revenue to the company. As quickly as possible and focusing on roles that were high impact.
So that was, that was something I figured out kind of on the fly with no real framework. But now with better systems that we've, we've developed, we've gotten more strategic and systematic. But lots, lots of lots that we had to do when I first joined.
Colleen Gallagher: And I'm curious, you talked a little bit about there of making [00:06:00] sure that you had a really solid understanding of company goals and strategy. And we hear a lot about, disconnects between the recruiter and the hiring manager. And you have this construct where the recruiter is a subject matter expert in. Hiring, but a hiring manager is a subject matter expert in their function. So how have you found, like when you talk about aligning what you're doing to help company goals and strategy, like what are some of the most effective ways you found to, to ensure that you're doing that?
Emily Paik: Yeah, absolutely. During my onboarding and even in the interview process, I really wanted to understand the product and the company. Goals at the get go. I think that's often something recruiters don't prioritize.
They prioritize becoming really good at filling recs and I, I think that's equally as important, but at any time you join a company, especially a [00:07:00] smaller company, I think the best impact that you can have as a recruiter is understanding the product, understanding the customers, and then finding the right people to fill the gaps that.
The company is trying to solve for or they're trying to fill, and that is something I I prioritized. I went through product training. I watched all the videos that I could find on YouTube about Kit and learned about the ICP. I even did a little bit of a listening tour when I first joined, and I met with key stakeholders, especially ones that knew the customer and the product really well.
Colleen Gallagher: I love that. I love that. So I heard you describe kind of where you were when you arrived. Um, and you and I have talked about this previously, sort of this construct around, um, stages of a, of a recruiting, um, maturity. I, I would say, and it sounds like what you were saying is, excuse me, when you arrived, it was pretty chaotic. You had to a, there was a lot of reactive, inconsistent things. Um, [00:08:00] so, uh, where do you, where would you put yourself on that spectrum now, and what are some of the other things that you've done to, to. know, sort of continue to move along, the spectrum of, of improvements.
Emily Paik: Yeah, absolutely. And just to go through that framework in case. It's helpful for your audience. It's a framework that I love. It comes from this book, talent Makers by the Founders of Greenhouse. I have it on my desk and I'm, I'm staring at it and I, I always go back to it because I'm always curious, like each month, each quarter, like where we're at based on the framework.
So the first stage is chaotic, which is where Kit was at when I first joined, in my opinion, right? No process. Everything felt really reactive there. Aren't really goals for recruiting either. It just fill, fill roles as they come. The next stage is inconsistent, so maybe you have some sort of process in place, but things aren't scaling, they're not [00:09:00] systematized.
There's no templates or no frameworks, no process still. But, um, maybe you have some, some groundwork for, for where you're, you're headed towards. And then the next is system. Systematic, which is where I think Kit is right now. Where we do have better systems, in place, better resources. We have, uh, structured interviewing.
We have, um, we have candidate resources that we can use for every job, no matter what job. And then the next is strategic, which is where we're trying to work towards, where we can be true business partners as a recruiting function. And I think the point that they make in this book with this framework. Is that recruiting doesn't have to be just another HR function, not that there's anything wrong with that, but a true mature TA org is a business partner and by doing what they do really well, they can add real value to the business.
And that's, that's something I'm thinking about like. [00:10:00] Last night I tried building a dashboard to understand like what's our cost per hire, almost like customer acquisition or for recruiting. And then eventually, like I'd love to understand what is the revenue per hire and like how are we adding that value to the business and maybe how can we rework or headcount plan so that we're adding those roles that are adding more revenue, revenue to the business quicker.
Colleen Gallagher: it, it's funny you say that. I've been thinking a lot, um, about. You know, I think it ties into sort of this metric we hear people talk about a lot in recruiting, which is quality of hire. And I've been, um, trying to, You know, research more about that and really think more about it. You know, my background, um, that I, I spent time in finance.
I'm a, I was a COO before I moved into a CEO role. So I have varying perspectives on this and I think, um, You know, I love. and I love getting to an answer. And the thing that [00:11:00] has really, as I dig more and more into this, that metric, I think you've heard it talked about for decades and no one's really nailed it.
And I hear people co coalescing around things like what you just talked about, like revenue per hire, um, or revenue just per headcount as a business, as an organization. Um. read, um, something recently about retention and how that's not really a good metric anymore because with a lot of the changes happening where you're, know, what you need in an employee is different and there's headcount, You know, changes, layoffs, and things like that, it's really hard to have that be a metric that's actually indicative of, You know, talent density of an organization.
And so I'm curious. Since you called out like revenue per headcount, like what are some of the other metrics or things that you look at or are thinking about to try and move you into that strategic bucket?
Emily Paik: the metrics that we look at to understand how [00:12:00] effective and successful our recruiting function is, they, I'll call those out, but they might be a little bit different than the ones you're referring to to get into that strategic bucket.
But the ones that we looked at in order to get from like inconsistent to systematic, were time to hire, time to fill.
Those are your classic recruiting. Qpi Quality of hire was a newer one. It was one that we weren't, um, reporting on, um, for, for a lot of my time at Kit. But with our, our new ATS, we're able to report on that. So that's become a really important metric. Um. For me and for our business, uh, CSAT is important to us.
So candidate, um, uh, satisfaction. And then the other ones are, um, that we're, um, actually one that I'm trying to work on right now is, um, percentage of on time hires. So based on target start date and target hire dates that we've set for ourselves, like are we able to meet those dates [00:13:00] and what percentage of those, uh, roles are filled on time?
Colleen Gallagher: Just, um, you mentioned that you're using your ATS to help with quality of
hire, And so I'm curious what that actually looks like in practice. Um, because I, I, I get the sense. It still feels very hard for people, excuse me, to define, And so I'm, I'm curious like how it's actually helping you. What are the inputs that you're looking at
Emily Paik: Yeah. I think quality of hire is one of those things that you can overcomplicate if you choose to.
Because there's the qualitative version of quality of hire, but then there is the quantitative version of quality of hire. And back at my previous company, I really looked at both when deciding how to calculate quality of hire.
Um, and the quantitative one is like you can go into chat GBT and have it create this very fancy algorithm for you if you'd like. [00:14:00] I am not a fan of that. I think just simplify, simplifying quality of hire is the way to go through manager surveys. But before we used Ashby, which is our current ATS, we we use Greenhouse and they didn't have a quality of hire.
Uh, functionality in their ATS Ashby does. And with Ashby we're able to automate those surveys. So they get sent out, um, during the new hires 30 16 90 day milestone, and the manager sent, uh, fills out a pretty short survey, like it's like four or five questions. And based on that, it calculates a quality of hire score.
Pretty much like, are you satisfied with this hire? Did the hiring process reflect this person's strengths? Are they meeting 30 or 60 or 90 day goals and requirements based on their onboarding plan? And that gives us the quality of hire score. And that is so much more seamless because a, it's, it's all automated for me.
So for me, the thought of sending surveys [00:15:00] out manually was just not something I was gonna do. And that was really the main reason why we weren't reporting on quality of hire. And you have that, that survey feedback. So if like based on the comments it sounds like this person isn't require the meeting requirements, I'm able to like go back to the hiring manager and push back.
Or if it feels like they actually are exceeding requirements, but the score that the manager gave them is lower than what I think. I can also go back to them and bring that up.
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah, I think that's super helpful, especially in today's day. You know, having that automated, um, feedback loop is really important. So it makes it more actionable and can help sort of into your flywheel of like, okay, maybe we got something wrong or whatever, and now we can recalibrate as we move forward with different hires.
Um. In the future. shifting gears a little bit back to the candidate experience, because when you talk about metrics and one of them being, um, CSAT surveys for candidates, I think, [00:16:00] um, I read one of your, You know, improvements that you focused on in 2025 was you got to a a hundred percent, um, positive candidate feedback, which I think, You know, most people would kill for. Um, and at the same time. You have a unique approach to some of, uh, to some interviewing, and you had, you had a post last year that talked about sharing questions with candidates in advance, And so I'd love to hear a little bit more about that and your perspective on that, why you think it's such a controversial topic, um, to folks and if you think it's sort of moved the needle at all.
Emily Paik: Yeah, absolutely. And I can't take any credit for that practice. I inherited that when I first joined Kit, and it's actually what drew me to Kit was the fact that they sent me the questions in advance and it just said something about how they think about. Giving candidates context and possibly what information they would give me in my job to be set up for success.
And it really aligns with one of our [00:17:00] values, which is work in public. that really means having the access to the right information. To do your job. And I think that speaks to why they, why we send those questions in advance. Because in the real world, at any company, whenever you need to make an important decision or work on a big project, you have access to information.
You have context, you have coworkers that will help you. And that's really part of the reason why we send our interview questions in advance is we're not trying to test someone's on the spot thinking. We want them to come up with an answer. That they, know well because they had time to prepare or they had time to think about all the other situations and their, previous roles that could apply to that question.
So that is something that we've always done. I don't think that's the main reason why we saw like such a jump in our, uh, CSAT scores. I think there's like a bunch of smaller improvements that we actually [00:18:00] made that any recruiter. Like Ken do. This is not something like unique to me, unique to Kit. Um, a couple things that come to mind is, uh, before they speak to me, so like before anyone, any candidate connects with like a member of Kit, they are sent a Loom video that I recorded myself.
It's a five minute Loom video just telling them about our company history, about our founder, Nathan, and some of our values and remote work. And it's just like that upfront context that I think puts a candidate at ease. And gives them more information about the company that they're interviewing for.
That is just so helpful. And it's five minutes, like anyone, You know, you have time to watch it before the interview. I also send, uh, a document version of it in case like someone prefers, uh, an asy option and we've gotten a lot of great feedback on that. The other thing is we put together a, uh, partner tracker, which is, it's just a spreadsheet of, um, our app partners and it links to their [00:19:00] careers page.
So anytime we don't move forward with a candidate, we send them this list of companies that are hiring and we say like, Hey, like, even though it wasn't a fit for us, um, we think that you'd be a great fit for, You know, other roles. And here's a list of companies just to help you with your job search.
Colleen Gallagher: That's amazing. And how did you come up with that list?
Emily Paik: So we have, um, one of our products is our app store. So we part, we have a list of partners and integrations that we offer to, to customers. And it's just the, those companies in their career page.
Colleen Gallagher: Oh wow. That's
Emily Paik: Yeah.
Colleen Gallagher: I love that. Um, I guess shifting gears a little bit to learn, um, to learn more about you, um, You know, I know your path to recruiting was a bit unique, so would love to hear a little bit more how you, how you came into, into recruiting as your, as your passion and, um, what advice you might have for folks, um, interested in recruiting.
Emily Paik: Like many [00:20:00] recruiters, I sort of. I just fell into it. This was not like a plan that I had in college that one day I wanted to be a recruiter. I don't know many people that plan to be recruiters in college, but I had always found the job search process very fascinating. And it's because in college and even post-college, like I went through a number of hiring processes and some.
Were absolutely terrible and some really stood out to me and I always thought like, why is it this way? Like why are so many people so jaded from like the hiring process or like being on the job market and why does it take a company like eight weeks to get back to me? Or why do I not hear back from some companies like at all?
And I just think in like the world of technology these days, like there. And I thought that back then too, like there had to be a better way to handle that. [00:21:00] And I remember working, there's this one recruiter that I remember work I remembered working with, um, when I was, uh, applying for internships. And she was absolutely delightful.
She would check in with me like even when she didn't have an update and I had like constant communication for probably five to six weeks straight. And I knew, and they were upfront with me that it was gonna be a long. Interview Process. it was gonna be like eight steps, which was pretty crazy. But this was, uh, for a finance internship, so that was pretty normal.
But the recruiter was delightful and she just always kept me in the loop. They, uh, she sent me a thank you note after one of my interviews, which was amazing. So, because of how impactful that experience was, me experience was for me. I thought this was, this was something I, I might be able to do. Well,
Colleen Gallagher: I love that and it's, it's interesting. I was, um, at Transform recently and was talking to a few other folks and, um. That's not an uncommon journey in terms of, [00:22:00] um, one, one person I was speaking with was telling me how she, You know, started in engineering and would get frustrated with the even her internal recruiters.
And she said her, she had a manager at one point say something like, maybe you should try it then, and she said she tried it and loved it.
Emily Paik: Yeah.
Colleen Gallagher: um, it, it is a, You know, it's unique and, and I. See a lot of similarities. Like I said, with my background in finance, HR and finance are often internal service providers. Um, I think the thing that is more unique about. Talent acquisition obviously, is that you're also speaking with a lot of people outside of the company. And so you have this dual role where you're, You know, you have clients inside the organization as well as outside the organization. And so it's a very unique, um, unique role. And I guess saying that makes me think of something else I heard at Transform, which is, uh, there was a discussion around. [00:23:00] Employer brand, your employer brand is your interview process or is your hiring process. And I'm curious if you would agree with that statement, how you think about employer brand, and what percentage of the interview process makes up your employer brand versus things you're doing outside of, um, of hiring, I should say.
Emily Paik: I think of employer brand the same way that I think about culture at a company. And culture is about what you do, right? Not what you say. So I think employer brand is a reflection of the candidate experience, right? And like, like going back to that and. There's like data that shows when candidates have a negative experience in the hiring process, it actually impacts their perception of your consumer brand.
And that is something like once I [00:24:00] had that realization, because I remember I rejected this candidate at a, at a previous company I worked for, and they said, I'm never using your product again. This was the worst hiring experience I've had. Point taken. I took responsibility for that, but it made me realize like how impactful, uh, a candidate's experience can be for your overall brand.
And word of mouth plays a big role in that too. Glassdoor especially, that's like, who doesn't look at Glassdoor before they interview with a company? So it's something that I, I think like, like brand is sort of on all of us. And even though I'm not in a customer facing role. What I do in the recruiting process and how I treat candidates, how I communicate with them, how they feel.
It impacts like the larger picture of your, your company brand. So I don't think employer brand needs to be one of those things where you have like a super large budget to [00:25:00] get on, like. The best company list at Glassdoor or Comparably or some of these other lists. And I, I think those lists are great, but for a company like Kit where we have smaller budget or a smaller company and we just don't have those resources, there's other things that we can do to reflect our employer brand and to strengthen our employer brand.
Some things that we've done is we've like interviewed current employees and we've asked them to, um. We've asked to put together a blog post about them and just like them sharing their journey, like what them, what brought them to kit, what their experience was like in the interview process, what they do at Kit.
And that just gives candidates like some insight into the culture, like through the story of a current employee that I would not be able to communicate as well. And those are actually things that we share. With candidates, those resources, like throughout the interview process, like every stage of the interview process, you should be educating your candidates on the company, the product, the culture, what it's like to work here, and just having [00:26:00] those resources their reusable have have.
That's been like the biggest game changer for me, for employer brand.
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. I mean, even when you were talking about those Loom, doing the loom videos, that's so helpful. I know, You know, we've all probably been through a hiring process, and I know I'm always very thirsty for, for knowledge about, about the organization. Particularly when, and I, You know, believe this is true for kit two when you're a fully remote distributed company and you don't. Get the opportunity to have a, an in-person office visit day, like, You know, many companies used to do, um, the, the move to, uh, remote work. And so it is a way for people to really get a sense for your culture, like you said. And I, I believe that that's very unique. I'm always trying to find whatever I can, um, on a company in advance.
Emily Paik: Yeah. And I've been in interview processes where I try to find that myself and I go through the [00:27:00] internet, go on Glassdoor, but I think a company proactively sharing that with you. Has, has been really helpful for us. That way they have information that we think reflects the team, the even the role or even the department.
Um, because yeah, not, not everything you read on Glassdoor is always accurate or, You know, there might be things that are updated. So I think if, if a company can share that with you in advance, and if you're a recruiter and you can build that into your inpro, into your interview process, that can be such a game changer.
Colleen Gallagher: alright. I, I veered away from you, but I wanna return to you, um, as, as in terms of what, what makes Emily, Emily, and I'm curious, um, you had to give yourself, um, You know, one piece of advice. On graduation day from from college, what would it be?
Emily Paik: don't panic. I think I was just like so nervous about like, I had such a wonderful college experience and then like, yeah, like most people, like entering the real world, the [00:28:00] job market. I was like. I, I was the person with like 10 different spreadsheets, like all the job trackers, like all of like the, the status of every application.
And because I, I didn't have a job like before graduation, and a lot of my friends did, and I felt very, uh, I, I felt like I was behind and like it all, it's all gonna work out. And I'm, I'm a big believer that like, You know, timing is everything and like, wherever you land, it'll be like the next best thing for you.
So like, I. You know, I, I know like the tech job market has been pretty rough. It has been rough for the past three or four years, but, um, You know, for me there, like every. Opportunity. I, I've had like has led, led me to the next greatest thing. Like I started working in finance and then I joined HubSpot, which is a larger tech company.
And then I went to a smaller company, Zapier, and then now I'm a Kit, which is an even smaller company. And each step of my career has prepared me like for the next, um, in a way that I didn't even realize at the time. The other thing too is [00:29:00] like, just. Any chance you have to make an impact at your company, just take it.
Like, I'm not someone that says like, that's not in my job description. Like, I'm not gonna do that. There's always a learning opportunity and there's always a aware, a way that you can make an impact and then eventually get promoted or, You know, expand your scope or do something else. So, uh, I think I'm, I'm still in that stage of my career, but I also think that's really important for people early in their careers, just like say yes to.
Everything, right. Don't worry about like, that's not in my job description or that's not my scope, or I don't have experience with that.
Colleen Gallagher: I've always found that the things that were the hardest in my career when I look back on them, were also the things that grew me the most as a professional and as a person. And so I love that. I love that advice. Don't panic.
Emily Paik: I panicked a ton.
Colleen Gallagher: Well you recently launched your own newsletter and You know, curious to hear a little bit more about like, what motivated you to do that.
You know, I would imagine that can feel a little scary as well. So like [00:30:00] how did you get to that point and, and how are you finding it?
Emily Paik: Yeah. To be honest with you, the biggest reason I I decided to start my own newsletter was to get to know our product better. Kit's product is so deep, there is so much that I still don't know. Even after using the product for a little over a month, I was just meeting with someone on our team to learn more about the product, and I was amazed.
The amount that I, I still don't know yet. So that was the main motivation, and that will help me recruit better people, right? Because the better I know the product, the more I can speak to it, or I can identify ways that candidates can actually help us improve our product and our gaps. The other reason too is I wanted to build, like start building my own personal brand and a newsletter.
Felt like one of the more natural ways to connect with my audience and grow my audience and speak to what I, I love to do, which is recruiting. And I love talking about talent and high performing teams. So I have a lot to say and I thought a newsletter was [00:31:00] the best way to share my opinion. Some of my hot takes.
The mistakes that I've made because I've made a lot of mistakes and it's been such a fun way to connect with people.
Colleen Gallagher: What else do you do outside of, um, recruiting? How do you spend your free time?
Emily Paik: Because I spend most of my time, like in front of a screen, outside of work I like to do. Things that just get me out of the house, like going for a long walk with my dog or going on a hike. Um, I love skiing. Like I live in the Northeast, so I have access to like a lot of great ski resorts and I also love reading, so I probably read a book or two every month.
I, my rule is if I read two books each month, one has to be something that will help me, uh, learn something. And the other one is just like a fun, fun, read some, some fun fiction book.
Colleen Gallagher: So you mentioned the, the Learn something book, um, earlier about the construction, sort of the lifecycle of, of talent, uh, [00:32:00] teams. are some other ones, um, that you've read recently that you really like?
Emily Paik: I just finished the hard thing about hard things,
Colleen Gallagher: Hmm.
Emily Paik: which I, I feel like is like the go-to book for any founder operator, startup person. And that one was really awesome to read. Just so many things that I, I immediately recognized. But I like it because like. The point that he makes is like, there's no perfect answer or like no way to fix thing, like one, one way to fix something when you're working in a startup.
Right? And then you really, uh, for me, I really developed a lot of empathy for CEOs and COOs, like people in your role, like when you, whenever you have to make hard decisions. And then the other one that I love is, uh, conscious Business by Fred Kaufman. I just really resonate with. Everything he shared in that book about how like a high performing team is not just about performance, right?
It's about honesty, integrity, and communication, and feeling [00:33:00] purpose in your work and how you show up. And it really reframed the way that I think about my role and like how I can find impact. Like if, if I'm, I used to say something like. If this role doesn't have the right candidates and we're not getting the right pipeline, but like now I say like, what can we do about that?
Like, how can I source better? How can my messaging, how can I, um, like what can I do in my role to, to help solve that, um, gap? And I think that's been like such a game changer for like the way I show up
Colleen Gallagher: I love the principles in the book. The one that I always think about is the extreme ownership, and I think it's exactly what you just talked about with like the reframing of like, we're not getting the right candidates. Well, what can we do to make sure that we do, um. And that is very important when you're building any business and especially one where you're trying to move at a really fast pace and generally with any company right now, with what's happening with AI and everything like that.
So
Emily Paik: Yeah, absolutely.
Colleen Gallagher: think both of those books are timeless and, and great recommendations. What do, what about fun reads? Anything good you've been reading lately? [00:34:00] That's fun.
Emily Paik: it still feels like winter in Boston, like it's very gray, very cold and rainy. I've been reading books that, uh, remind me of summer or being at the beach. I just re-read Beach Read by Emily Henry, which is one of my faves. I just wanna feel like it's summer or I'm on vacation.
Um somewhere. So I've been reading a lot of fun, fun romcom romcoms fiction books,
Colleen Gallagher: good. Good. Recs. All right, before we finish up, I have a bit of a hot takes, uh, lightning round que set of questions for you. Um, candidate thank yous, are they required or nice to have?
Emily Paik: Nice to have.
Colleen Gallagher: are people still sending them.
Emily Paik: Most people don't send them and. I don't care. I don't lose sleepover if someone didn't send me a candidate. Thank you. Note. I remember when I first, um, started working at Kit, like one of our hiring managers was like, I don't know about this candidate. They didn't send me a thank you note. And I said, I literally said to her, who cares?
[00:35:00] Right? Like, we, like, it's one of those things that like, if they do reach out, it's nice, but I don't, I don't even respond to half of them, to be honest with you.
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.
Emily Paik: And it, it, it really doesn't make a difference in the person's ability to do the job.
Colleen Gallagher: Are resume's dying.
Emily Paik: I think we need to keep resumes and I, I used to work at a company where, um, they were resume optional, but if I'm not looking at their resume, I'm most likely going to their LinkedIn profile and I'm most likely looking at the companies they've worked out to see if they're similar or relevant to kit.
So I'm, I'm still a big fan of resumes. I think, um, with ai, like res like reading resumes has gotten harder because if you're getting a lot of AI generated resumes, so even with, um, You know, AI tools that help you screen resumes, like you still need to talk to the person. But I always wanna see a resume.
Colleen Gallagher: what is it that replaces it? Like, to your point, you can get, You know, LinkedIn, but then you have to, you're leaving the people [00:36:00] doing the hiring to fill in the gaps, which is not really what you want as a candidate. So I do think it, gives, it, it serves a purpose to give a candidate the opportunity to be specific about what, what the, you should take into consideration when you're hiring them.
Emily Paik: It is also like during my screening calls, I will point out something about a candidate's resume that stood out to me and it makes for a great conversation starter. Or sometimes the candidate lights up and says like, oh, I'm so glad you notice that, or you actually read my resume, and they're, sometimes they're surprised that I did, but.
I think it goes a long way when you notice those little details or those metrics that someone moved, that they called out on their resume. So I think it actually helps one, once you're on the call.
Colleen Gallagher: how are you using AI in screening? Do you ha do you do any, um, AI screening right now, whether it's just like a resume review or a phone call?
Emily Paik: I use AI tools to help me review applications. I don't use like an AI screener [00:37:00] tool. I think that is the future though. Like I think in six to 12 months, I think most companies will be using some sort of AI screener tool, or we'll start to evaluate one. We, um, in Ashby, the ATS that we use, there is, um, AI assisted application review.
So if you give it the criteria, um, based on your job description, it'll filter out some candidates or it'll, um, flag some candidates that the AI thinks is a strong fit for your role. I also built a, um, a tool because it's, this isn't a feature that Ashby had, although this is a feature I wish. Most ATSs did have, I built like a Google Chrome extension where I can just highlight a company on any candidate's resume and it'll immediately, it will pull up, um, information about that company from Google, LinkedIn, and, and Crunchbase and like a little side panel because.
For us, like we really need to know if like the company the candidate worked for will be relevant to like our stage and like where we're looking to scale. And I always find myself Googling companies, [00:38:00] especially if I haven't heard of them, um, or if there is a company I've heard of, I just wanna know like what size they are
or what revenue.
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. And what about, um, inbound versus outbound right now? Like, are you finding your best candidates via outbound? Do you get good quality via inbound, or how do you think about the balance between those two?
Emily Paik: It is a bit of both, mostly inbound and referrals. Um, there's some outbound, I just don't have a ton of time. To do outbound. I, I, I definitely prioritize outbound for our harder to fill roles or like bringing more diversity in the pipeline. Um, I think tools like Juice Box or other like sourcing tools are really great to help increase outbound.
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.
Emily Paik: Um, I started using Juice Box a bit, which has really helped, um, automate like the process of finding candidates and giving it criteria. So I think tools like that, I think AI is gonna have a hard time like replicating that. Like if, if someone. Wants to build a tool like that with like [00:39:00] Clot or chat GBT, just because like something like Juice Box.
They have that data that you can't replicate with AI tools right now.
Colleen Gallagher: Awesome. Well, um, let me see if I have any last, uh, what do, what do you think about, um, AI screening, like, uh, like a bot, uh, doing any screening roles, like whether you're gonna use it or not, but like where, how do you, how do you think about it?
Emily Paik: I think it depends. I was just talking with, um, a recruiter actually that works at, um, Ashby, and she was saying that she uses an AI screening tool because a lot of the candidate, she does a lot of high volume recruiting, like customer support roles and oftentimes like they're interviewing candidates like in completely different time zones and like Australia or Asia.
So sometimes like those candidates opt to do an AI screening screening first because they can't find time that works with a recruiter. So that's been, I think that's helpful for like high volume roles. I do think it's like in 12 months, like most of us are gonna be [00:40:00] using, um, these tools, especially if we see like the rise of like fraudulent candidates.
Like that continues to be a pattern. I think it's gonna be really helpful. Um, and sussing that out.
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. I, You know, talking to some of our customers, that's what we hear a lot is I've heard it more than I would've expected that they had, You know, um, foreign. You know, bad actors getting into their pipeline almost all the way through the hiring process. Like
Emily Paik: Yeah.
Colleen Gallagher: it once and I was like, oh, that's shocking.
And now I've heard it a number of times And so I, I definitely think it can be helpful there, especially when people are using AI to come up with their resumes and they can sort of. Ensure that their criteria they're putting on there will get them through an AI screen. Um, if you had a, if you had a, You know, voice only, um, interview, it can help weed that out.
Is, is, uh, I think is a positive thing. So
Emily Paik: And I think as the recruiters are being asked to do more, right, like take on more recs too, it should help [00:41:00] with that, just given the bandwidth that the recruiter has only so many hours in the week to do interviews.
Colleen Gallagher: Yeah, and I think you, you're, um, You know, generally you can see that, You know, I, I think it was, um, a blog or a white paper that, um, Tracy Santic from Zapier wrote was saying that actually you get more people further along in the process because you're able to screen more people. So you actually. Aren't losing out on the, the talent that you just can't get to in terms of like resume reviews or things that, You know, a human might have missed.
So it can actually have some positive benefits as well.
Emily Paik: Yeah, I'd be really interested to see like their data, if they like, have been able to, uh, decrease like their time to fill, um, and time to hire just by getting to those candidates quicker. Yeah,
Colleen Gallagher: well, where can people find you?
Emily Paik: they can find me on LinkedIn. They can also subscribe to my newsletter. And I, I read like [00:42:00] all my replies to my newsletter. If you respond to me, I promise I will read it and most of the time I will respond. So yeah, definitely subscribe to my newsletter. Follow me on LinkedIn. I post a lot about the topics that we discuss today.
Colleen Gallagher: Well, thank you so much, Emily, for joining me today. Um, I really enjoyed our conversation and just learning a lot more about how you're thinking about, You know, moving through those layers and structures of, of a, a building, a really successful recruiting team. And you've had some amazing accomplishments around improving a lot of the, the metrics that matter.
And so really appreciate you sharing that with. With myself and uh, our audience today.
Emily Paik: Yeah. Thank you, Colleen, for having me.
Colleen Gallagher: All right, well, thanks everyone for listening. If you learn something today or laughed, uh, tell someone about it and, um, thanks again to Emily. has been another exciting episode of Recruiters on the Rise. We'll see you all next time.
And that wraps up another episode. Thank you for joining. For show notes and other episodes, visit us at recruiters on the [00:43:00] rise.com. Recruiters on the Rise is sponsored by Lavalier, an interview intelligence platform. Lavalier goes beyond basic note takers to approve your ability to assess candidates with AI powered interview questions, summaries, and transcription.
With lavalier, you can finally hire with speed and confidence.